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It's Unmanly

A Primer for Ministry to Homosexuals

By Christopher Zehnder

"That ministry is only reaching out to people who practice and promote homosexuality, to sustain them in how they live," said Father Richard Perozich about the Los Angeles archdiocesan Ministry to Gay and Lesbian Catholics. Father Perozich is a priest of the diocese of San Diego and directs a chapter of Courage, a Vatican-approved ministry to homosexuals. To Father Perozich, the Los Angeles ministry "is not reaching out to some of the greatest people and the most abandoned, who wish to live a chaste life and who don't have any support to do so because too many other people are trying to find 'gay rights' and ways for people to live out their homosexuality."

I spoke to Father Perozich in the wake of Father Peter Liuzzi's resignation as director of the Los Angeles homosexual ministry in order to clarify, during this time of transition, the Church's teachings on homosexuality. The interview, conducted in late September, follows.

What does the Church actually teach about homosexuality?

The Church teaches that homosexuality refers to a "predominant or exclusive attraction between members of the same sex" [Catechism of the Catholic Church]. Another document, the 1992 document from the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, Some Considerations Concerning the Response to Legislative Proposals on the Non-discrimination of Homosexual Persons says homosexuality is a behavior to which no one has any conceivable right.

St. Thomas Aquinas called homosexuality the "sin against nature." Has the Church at all modified that understanding of homosexuality?

No, not at all. The Catechism of the Catholic Church bases itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity, and on tradition, which has always declared that homosexuality is intrinsically disordered -- that means, in and of itself the [homosexual drive] is not ordered to God's creation. When we say it is objectively disordered, we mean that the object [same-sex intercourse] to which homosexuality tends is not part of the order of God.

Certain authorities, today, say the Church is coming closer to seeing homosexuality as something someone does not chooses. Is this true?

The Church says without a doubt that one does not choose one's feelings; but she also says that one always must be in control of one's actions. So you either choose to engage in homosexual sex, or you choose not to. But the whole condition is disordered. The Church does understand that people don't choose their feelings, but she also understands that homosexuality is a very serious condition. While it is not the commission of a sin, it's still part of the iniquity; the Catechism says that homosexuality is a "more or less strong tendency towards an intrinsic moral evil" and that "the inclination itself must be seen as an objective disorder."

Some practicing homosexualist priests will say is that homosexuality is more than the disorder; that it affects the entire person. The Vatican's 1995 Truth and Meaning of Human Sexuality, and other documents, talk of a person's intellectual, spiritual, biological, moral, ethical, emotional, and psychological make-up -- meaning you can divide us into those sorts of things. What practicing and promoting homosexualists priests will say is that homosexuality affects all of those. Well, I believe it does -- for them. In the Catechism it says that sexuality affects all parts of our being; I think for some people that homosexuality has obsessed them so much so that is true. They are living so deeply in the darkness that they don't know where the light is, because they have not been listening to the Church's teaching. They have fought against her so much, and have tried to justify their own homosexual actions, and to feel justified for their homosexual feelings.

Does the Church address the origins of homosexuality?

Yes, the Church says that homosexuality originates in original sin; she addresses it from the spiritual point of view. The Church does work with the sciences, and in the 1986 letter says: "in a particular way, we would ask the bishops to support with the means at their disposal the development of appropriate forms of pastoral care that would include the assistance of the psychological, social, and medical sciences, in full accord with the teaching of the Church." So, she does not look to science to say, "well there's a biological origin, therefore, this is good, it's created, and it's normal." But this is what practicing homosexualists in the Church are trying to do. They are trying to use the sciences to leave out the transcendent, and to explain it away, so they can justify their a priori idea that homosexuality is O.K.

Even if it could be established that homosexuality is biological in origin, does that change anything?

No, it does not change the moral aspect of it. It would just explain why some people are homosexual. The Church says, in the Catechism, that the psychological origins of homosexuality remain largely unexplained. However, there are a few responsible psychologists who are experts in the field who would be able to give you a great deal of consistent empirical psychological evidence that's found across the board with most people who have same-sex attraction.

It's important to distinguish between sin and concupiscence, here, isn't it?

Right, we say that one has a tendency toward sin, but that doesn't necessarily mean that one has to live that out. There is no culpability for feeling a same-sex attraction. However, if you have a tendency toward an immoral disorder, you really need to do some work on that. And there are people who are at different levels. Even in my own Courage group, there are those who don't want to make any of the effort to look any deeper to where some of this might be removed. It would take a lot of effort. They're very content to live with it and to be chaste and to realize that it's not from God, and they're doing fine in doing that. However, there could be some deeper life they could be engaging in, to remove some of their feelings.

I don't believe there's a cure for homosexuality, because every one of our experiences stays with us forever, and can push its way up into memory. But the question is, how deep a control does homosexuality have over someone? I believe some can come to the point where it does not have any control at all over them. A thought may come up, but someone learns how to deal with it and push it off to the side.

Homosexuality is but one evil tendency among many others, yet It seems to be different from the concupiscence of a greedy man, or the concupiscence of ordinary lust....

That's because their objects are normal. The concupiscence of greed is, "I want to possess cars and money;" those things are good in themselves, but homosexuality in itself is evil, it's disordered. There's nothing good about it, except for the fact that it makes you turn to Christ for redemption.

How does the Church address the problem of homosexuality?

John Harvey began his ministry, Courage (which is Vatican-approved) because he was asked by Cardinal O'Connor of New York what could be done for people to help them come out of homosexuality? That is basically the Church's call -- to come out of the lifestyle; to realize that this is what you feel, but that you don't have to act this way. With Christ there is redemption. Cardinal George of Chicago said to deny that someone can live chastely is to deny that Christ is risen from the dead. Courage has men work within a group, so that no one need share problems alone.

You object to the terms, "gay" and "lesbian." Why?

Because, once you start using that kind of language, you've just sold the store. These terms create a new type of person with political rights -- a person who really doesn't exist. One is either a male or a female. If you have same-sex attraction, then you have a damaged sexuality. These terms have acquired the meanings of created being, of immutability, of normality, of goodness, of being able to live out one's desires.

Sometimes I wonder why we are talking about homosexuality so much? It seems inordinate.

The reason why you're talking about it so much is that it is part of the campaign of practicing, promoting homosexuals who have political power to get homosexuality out in the media. As you hear about it more and more, you become desensitized, you come to accept it. It becomes a part of life. I read in some news study that some 80 percent of Catholic high school students see nothing wrong with homosexuality. Why? Because it's out there; it's on MTV; people talk about how to "come out." When it's out there everywhere, it becomes a "normal" thing. Because it is said so much in the wrong way, it really requires the Church to give a stronger response.

It would seem the Church should be a bastion against homosexuality. But it seems she is not.

Well, it has to do with many people who have power in the Church, particularly the clergy, and the significant number of them who have same-sex attraction. A good group has no homosexual attraction at all; there's a large group who does, but who would not act out on it -- but they also don't want to be told that it's wrong in any way. They're not willing to stand up and fight it, because then they would have to stand up and face some things about themselves. They might say, if this is wrong, why am I not working on it more in my life? Perhaps they engage in personal fantasy and masturbation. A few I know of live vicariously by listening to the lives and their stories of practicing homosexuals. Others in various Church ministries reject the Church's teaching on homosexuality, and try to accommodate practicing, promoting homosexuals.

Why do we have so many homosexual clergy?

It is a softer profession. There's no competition, no challenge. When you are out there in the world you are competing to be the best at whatever you do, but you cannot really compete to be the best priest. The priesthood has become a place where one has refuge, and now one can openly admit homosexuality and, sometimes, even the practice of it. If anyone says anything about it, then they're homophobic and they've got the problem. It's the silence on the part of the bishops and those who are in authority; they're supposed to speaking out against this.

You'll see when priests gather together, it's birds of a feather. The priests who are more effeminate and those who have promoted, or are rumored to have practiced, homosexuality, clique off to themselves. I feel uncomfortable when a man doesn't act like a man and when a man talks about unmanly things, especially if they have to do with sexuality, homosexuality. I don't want to hear how good looking so-and-so-is over there. It's unmanly. It's unmanly to do the act and to talk about it.

Even worse, you have priests in some of these other ministries who are out there saying this orientation affects their entire being, that it cannot be cured, that the Church is wrong in telling you to make any change in regard to this. As Matthew says, "not only do you fail to enter the Kingdom yourself, but you deny other people entry as well."

Some argue that, in order not to turn homosexuals away from the Church, we need to bring them gradually to the truth -- not thrust the fullness of the Church's teaching on them at once, but slowly acclimate them to it. How is that not a valid approach?

I would say, first, the opposite is happening. Many in the Church are saying that homosexuality is something normal and good. Secondly, one must preach the full truth, with compassion. When I preach on abortion, I realize there are going to be men who have driven their wives to abortion clinics and women whose lives are destroyed because of it. I always offer Christ's forgiveness, and a program, Rachel's Hope, to help them understand what they did and to come to a degree of peace in their lives. When I preach on contraception, I tell them there is a program called Natural Family Planning. When I preach on homosexuality, I say nobody needs to be berated just for what they feel; however these actions are always wrong. There is a program, there is Courage, to help someone understand.

Every time I preach about homosexuality, if there is somebody who is in some sort of homosexual relationship, they will call me. I had a couple call me last week. The one woman said, "you are saying something bad about homosexuality," and I said, "O yeah, I am." She mentioned her partner, and I said, "if this partner is your friend, that's very good; if this partner is your lover, you are in serious sin. That's what we're here for in the Church, to make sure you are managing your feelings and your sexuality well. That's why Christ came. You can have any sinful tendency, and while you might not enjoy it, be happy that's the only one you have and ask for the Lord's help, and He'll do it for you. The message of Christ is redemption from sin."

What has happened is that some priests, who deny homosexuality is a problem or a sin, who say it's natural, have worked their way into ministries and gained the confidence of various bishops. I've sat with such priests, and what they'll say is, well, they're Catholics and we need to keep them in the Church. Well, basically, the only way you can keep them in the Church is to tell them that it is O.K. to act out that way; otherwise, they will leave, because they value their homosexuality more than they do their Catholic faith.

Many people with same-sex attraction are hyper-sensitive. One of the greatest obstacles to anyone's conversion to Christ is the acceptance of a gay identity. When someone has same-sex attraction when he is younger, he knows he is different. He finds himself in conflict, later on, when he hears people talking badly about homosexuality. (One should talk badly about homosexuality, because it is bad. One needs to be homophobic, you need to be afraid of it, because it is a life and an evil that has its own end, to establish itself over everybody and over everything, just like all other sin.) One way he resolves the conflict is to say, "Well, hell, no wonder I feel this way, I'm gay! I'm supposed to be this way!" Once you have accepted a gay identity, anyone who says anything bad about it, has said something bad about you. He's offended your whole being, because you've appropriated being gay as who you are. You have invested your whole energy, your whole life in a lie.

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